I really don’t think these kids can put themselves in their parents’ shoes and understand how deeply they are wounding them. They probably won’t until they have their own children and in the event their own children estrange themselves also.
How do estrangement researchers and professionals understand the grandchild experience? Adult children feeling justified in removing parents from their lives is one thing. But, is there anyone speaking up for grandchildren? Has anyone written about the experience of children who grow up without grandparents only to find out later that their parents kept them apart? How does that dynamic work out? It seems there could be resentment, anger, confusion, or other difficult emotions.
Prosecutorial is a good word, however, the ACs case would never hold up in court. These ACs have it in their minds that they are the judge, jury and executioner - and execution consists of long, slow, cruel, torture. Can you help us understand how kids raised in moral, structured, supportive homes can become the Marquis de Sade overnight? That is what keeps me awake.
Another nice member Anne Marie I think it was, made the following comment during the video:
(this was in reference to Dr. Coleman's advice to not send a letter of amends in the parents own handwriting, but rather send it in the email or at the very least type it up but don't use your own handwriting because it's too triggering to the adult child..)
Anne commented:
"So effed up that they're triggered by their mother's handwriting. You know what's triggering that I just recall, writing notes and putting it in their lunchbox and backpack they were either loving notes or encouraging notes. God this is so jacked up."
Anne, I could not agree with you more! I am SO DONE!
Can you please do a deeper dive into the cult of one - daughter in law? Anything and everything that you can share about this type of behavior and how we as parents can deal with it- especially since she has brainwashed our son. What makes a person behave this way, how to deal with her, how to open up our sons eyes- she has literally torn our family apart- siblings not speaking, with holding our grandson, refusing all attempts at communication or connection, changing the family last name.
At last we are acknowledging the sadistic contempt, the eager punishing that flavors the "healing" of these poor little victims. Early on I recognized that their affect is the opposite of what we see in people who had a history of abuse. Their affect, and attitude is often sadistic, more on line with a cluster B personality disorder.
My term for my daughter’s behavior has been contemptuous haughtiness - AKA Vindictive Protectiveness. My dilemma is an E/R Life Coach, and a MFT therapist with similar policies/approaches of determining “if the parent is ready” to do the hard work of, essentially, carrying the full blame for the EC’s pain and behaviors. These two individuals have self-determined that my efforts are faulty, and that I continue to be in a place of denial about my responsibility. And yet offering alternatives of licensed PHD clinicians with Family System training with focus on E/R, and PsyPact for legitimate cross state therapy has been denied by the ED because she is aligned with the “is the parent ready” approach. There MUST be balance for both parents and EC’s. Your thoughts?
And what's the deal today with these young adults feeling it's OK to be unnecessarily mean? That's always been my pet peeve at school growing up, and in office politics where I worked.
When people purposely go way beyond the mark, and are unnecessarily mean.
This article is so well written- it is much of what I have experienced. A child so cruel, verbally abusive and angry that I hardly recognize her. After two amends letters, weekly check ins etc, I have finally taken your advice and have not reached out in over a month. I miss my grandchildren horribly but feel lighter in that I no longer have to wonder if I’ll catch her on the right day where she might even be decent to me. I feel lighter no longer doing that dance.
In our case, my son seemed to be more realistic and open to discussion until my daughter decided to up the ante with false accusations, and then apparently he bought into her rewriting of history. We haven't seen or talked to either now for almost 3 years (they refused to come home for my mom/their grandmother's funeral then).
My son told me I didnt deserve to be a mother and was so happy that my daughter also decided to stop contact with me only after he told her something that made her so angry and upset with me. She didn’t talk to me for 3 mo based on her therapists recommendation . But we worked it out and now she is currently estranged from her brother and explains his behavior as maladaptive . My son has attempted to use his son as a weapon and even told my parents and all other family that they would never see him or his son again unless they saw him and understood that he could never reconcile with me. They refused and called him cruel. He is obviously shooting himself in the foot as no one has agreed to his terms. I know he is lonely and I’m afraid still angry. Waiting for his rock bottom but it has been 2 years . I’m going to send a Mother’s Day card to his social work therapy expert wife. What do you suggest I include and hoping it will soften him from his anger. She is the culprit of all of his conclusions that he was enmeshed and i am a narcissist . He had to show her his complete loyalty . He also thinks I’m holding everyone hostage against him. Is there any hope ?
I am writing my amends letter and using the format in the breakthrough workbook. I am mentioning specifically two of the primary incidents that have brought the estrangement on. And now I realize that my daughter has made her own version of what happened which she has recounted to people that differs from what I am trying to be transparent about. So now I think it is not a good idea to say specifically because she will just argue that that’s not what happened and be pissed that I’m not admitting to her version of the story. Is there a different way to write the part of the amend that acknowledges my mistakes?
A couple years ago, before AC completely cut off contact, after I posted on Facebook about an event or something we had attended, my daughter responded in a very snarky way that we "just went on with your lives." I found that interesting and disturbing at the same time. What are your thoughts on that?
I really don’t think these kids can put themselves in their parents’ shoes and understand how deeply they are wounding them. They probably won’t until they have their own children and in the event their own children estrange themselves also.
My adult children actually made the cut-off more permanent after they had their own children. Very devastating.
My understanding is that this cycle will repeat generationally until course corrected.
Unfortunately my daughter and her hubbie are not having kids 😕
Right, so they'll never get the honor and privilege of going through what they are putting us through.
That is unfortunate
And you know what? Maybe they even know that, and they're not gonna give it the chance.
Can this article be shared? I’m new to sub stack, but I am a subscriber. I thought I’d ask you.
How do estrangement researchers and professionals understand the grandchild experience? Adult children feeling justified in removing parents from their lives is one thing. But, is there anyone speaking up for grandchildren? Has anyone written about the experience of children who grow up without grandparents only to find out later that their parents kept them apart? How does that dynamic work out? It seems there could be resentment, anger, confusion, or other difficult emotions.
Q: Please say more about how cruelty is viewed as self care.
Great question
I'd like to know too
Prosecutorial is a good word, however, the ACs case would never hold up in court. These ACs have it in their minds that they are the judge, jury and executioner - and execution consists of long, slow, cruel, torture. Can you help us understand how kids raised in moral, structured, supportive homes can become the Marquis de Sade overnight? That is what keeps me awake.
Another nice member Anne Marie I think it was, made the following comment during the video:
(this was in reference to Dr. Coleman's advice to not send a letter of amends in the parents own handwriting, but rather send it in the email or at the very least type it up but don't use your own handwriting because it's too triggering to the adult child..)
Anne commented:
"So effed up that they're triggered by their mother's handwriting. You know what's triggering that I just recall, writing notes and putting it in their lunchbox and backpack they were either loving notes or encouraging notes. God this is so jacked up."
Anne, I could not agree with you more! I am SO DONE!
Can you please do a deeper dive into the cult of one - daughter in law? Anything and everything that you can share about this type of behavior and how we as parents can deal with it- especially since she has brainwashed our son. What makes a person behave this way, how to deal with her, how to open up our sons eyes- she has literally torn our family apart- siblings not speaking, with holding our grandson, refusing all attempts at communication or connection, changing the family last name.
At last we are acknowledging the sadistic contempt, the eager punishing that flavors the "healing" of these poor little victims. Early on I recognized that their affect is the opposite of what we see in people who had a history of abuse. Their affect, and attitude is often sadistic, more on line with a cluster B personality disorder.
Yes, and we are in a culture right now that rewards victimhood probably more than it should.
If you have compassion, compassion says I can see your pain.
Victimhood says, my pain entitles me to something.
And I think we've spent a few decades making that second thing a winning strategy for a lot of people..
My term for my daughter’s behavior has been contemptuous haughtiness - AKA Vindictive Protectiveness. My dilemma is an E/R Life Coach, and a MFT therapist with similar policies/approaches of determining “if the parent is ready” to do the hard work of, essentially, carrying the full blame for the EC’s pain and behaviors. These two individuals have self-determined that my efforts are faulty, and that I continue to be in a place of denial about my responsibility. And yet offering alternatives of licensed PHD clinicians with Family System training with focus on E/R, and PsyPact for legitimate cross state therapy has been denied by the ED because she is aligned with the “is the parent ready” approach. There MUST be balance for both parents and EC’s. Your thoughts?
This has exactly been my experience with my AC child their "counselor".
It's all about power and control. It's all ego-driven, it's not about love, it's not a dialogue. Power and control.
Exactly, and if anything confirms their skill-free immaturity, it's that attitude.
And what's the deal today with these young adults feeling it's OK to be unnecessarily mean? That's always been my pet peeve at school growing up, and in office politics where I worked.
When people purposely go way beyond the mark, and are unnecessarily mean.
This article is so well written- it is much of what I have experienced. A child so cruel, verbally abusive and angry that I hardly recognize her. After two amends letters, weekly check ins etc, I have finally taken your advice and have not reached out in over a month. I miss my grandchildren horribly but feel lighter in that I no longer have to wonder if I’ll catch her on the right day where she might even be decent to me. I feel lighter no longer doing that dance.
I know how you feel.
What has happened to the men in our society that they're so willing to turn on their own mothers to appease some disordered woman in their life?
I'm living it also and I'm just so disgusted with it all.
What would happen if men learned to put their foot down? I don't think "Happy Wife Happy Life" is working anymore.
In our case, my son seemed to be more realistic and open to discussion until my daughter decided to up the ante with false accusations, and then apparently he bought into her rewriting of history. We haven't seen or talked to either now for almost 3 years (they refused to come home for my mom/their grandmother's funeral then).
That low-down B----.
Men really need to start putting their foot down and the women will fall in line. They will have no choice, or else end up alone.
These young adult women today have become so disordered, they seem to be blackholes of unmet needs, that demands appeasement or else.
I think men should take the "else" and WALK.
Someone recently recommended a documentary on Netflix called the Manosohere”. I haven’t watched it yet.
Josh, thank you so very much for your continued efforts to analyze this phenomenon from all angles. It is so helpful. This piece was very precise.
The more we learn, hopefully the better we can respond.
Overall, this is such a sad experience for the parents. Your support and analyses help a lot! Thank you!!
My son told me I didnt deserve to be a mother and was so happy that my daughter also decided to stop contact with me only after he told her something that made her so angry and upset with me. She didn’t talk to me for 3 mo based on her therapists recommendation . But we worked it out and now she is currently estranged from her brother and explains his behavior as maladaptive . My son has attempted to use his son as a weapon and even told my parents and all other family that they would never see him or his son again unless they saw him and understood that he could never reconcile with me. They refused and called him cruel. He is obviously shooting himself in the foot as no one has agreed to his terms. I know he is lonely and I’m afraid still angry. Waiting for his rock bottom but it has been 2 years . I’m going to send a Mother’s Day card to his social work therapy expert wife. What do you suggest I include and hoping it will soften him from his anger. She is the culprit of all of his conclusions that he was enmeshed and i am a narcissist . He had to show her his complete loyalty . He also thinks I’m holding everyone hostage against him. Is there any hope ?
During the video, another member asked a very excellent question:
"What about children who complain grandchildren getting more love and attention than they did."
You know who else complained about that? CASEY ANTHONY
I am writing my amends letter and using the format in the breakthrough workbook. I am mentioning specifically two of the primary incidents that have brought the estrangement on. And now I realize that my daughter has made her own version of what happened which she has recounted to people that differs from what I am trying to be transparent about. So now I think it is not a good idea to say specifically because she will just argue that that’s not what happened and be pissed that I’m not admitting to her version of the story. Is there a different way to write the part of the amend that acknowledges my mistakes?
A couple years ago, before AC completely cut off contact, after I posted on Facebook about an event or something we had attended, my daughter responded in a very snarky way that we "just went on with your lives." I found that interesting and disturbing at the same time. What are your thoughts on that?
I remember once Deepak Chopra saying, when you have a decision to make, there are an infinite number of possibilities in how you can respond.
But he points out, the most karmically correct decision is the one that benefits the most people around you.
(that's what I meant about other cultures must look at us like we are absolutely nuts.)
In our culture, it's OK to steam roll over family members and wear it like a badge!
Or they don a CAPE! Like Superman😄