Is it fair to say that underlying mental health diagnoses, such as extreme anxiety disorders, severe obsessive-compulsive disorders, or borderline personality disorders, will exacerbate the Dark Triad traits, thus making reconciliation impossible without the affected person engaging in comprehensive therapy with a qualified medical professional?
My wife and I were married in 1968. Our daughter, K, born in 1972. We have been estranged for over twenty years, no contact for half that time. Every silent missed birthday and holiday is another stab in the heart and brings back all the feelings described in this Substack post. A reason we’re paid subscribers - the need to keep trying to understand WHY?
Thank you Dr Coleman for your insights. It helps me understand. At first I was so bewildered by the estrangement that I blamed myself. I take responsibility for my failures but it is not all my doing.
My door will always be open to my daughter and her family. I pray for them and for all estranged families.
I read this earlier today, and took a pause, called in to work as I drank my coffee, with tears streaming. I'm working hard to let go. It's so hard. Dr. Coleman, thank you for your continuing, researched articles. I'm really trying to let go and move forward. I've had really troubling, detailed dreams again the past few nights. I want them to stop. I took a break from Substack but it didn't work.
Many good points here. I admire and am grateful for your work overall.
One thing I consistently feel disagreement with, however, is the assumption that ALL parents in this situation feel guilt. I feel regret about some things like any parent would. And would love a re-do like most of us would about anything of importance in their life.
But I feel zero guilt. Shock, bewilderment, profound grief, and longing, and anger…yes. But guilt? No. I know I was a good mother and do not deserve this. Period.
Whenever I read your work I have this conflict and sense of disconnect when I stumble on the constant assumption that all of us carry guilt. It gets in the way of
me embracing all the other wisdom and elements, including humor and kindness and many many ideas that I agree with in your work.
Same here. No guilt, never blamed myself. Due to my upbringing and temperment, I am always very deliberate and intentional in what I say and do. I know they hate me, but that didn't trick me into thinking I am hateful. But I guess it seems more humble and loving for a parent to say, "I must have done something wrong." But no, I don't regret a thing.
Yikes! You must have interviewed my son… thank you for this additional insight. The erosion of our relationship began about 4 years ago, never no contact, but every characteristic that embodies the Dark Triad. Every time there is any attempt at an honest conversation I somehow end up deeper in the whole than when I started. He acknowledged that my amends letter must have taken a lot of work, that he appreciated my effort. But of course nothing changes. Anyway I could go on forever. Very much hoping that this is recorded because on the east Coast it will be 11:00am, with scheduled commitments. So much more to learn 🤞
Im beginning to wonder why we are doing this to ourselves. It's torture. I will never forget the last time I saw my then 22 year old daughter (2 yrs ago). It was after a lovely day (mostly) visiting her in Austin. I live in Denver. She was very agitated. In retrospect, I recognize many things. The end was when she tossed me and my luggage out into the dark. It was traumatic, and over nothing, really. The look of hate in her very blue eyes, when she told me she would never speak to me again "Forever" was heartbreaking. The dreams I have are haunting. I was not perfect, but this was awful. I can no longer do this to myself. Nor should you.
I am new to the comments section. I am a father of adult children, but I don't feel like one anymore. The Dark Triad piece is exactly what we have experienced with our two adult daughters. D1 for over 3yrs and unbelievable cruel, angry behavior. D2 over a year, wants no contact. The family is wrecked, relationships with grandchildren are askew, not normal.
Joy of life is gone, we can't get it back except for short periods. I'm hurt and angry, sad and worried, but can't do anything. Therapy didn't work out. Daughters have shut off relationships with others in the family and friends. The damage is fantastic and can't be turned back anymore.
Joshua has commented before that there are therapists who encourage adult children cutting off family. How awful. We did everything to help these two daughters. After reading books, and these comments... I know we are not alone in this horror. Some time ago Joshua recommended "Ambiguous Loss", a very relevant book, but depressing. Could only read it in small doses.
I’d like to see writing about how genetics play a role in this dark triad of behaviors. I saw warning signs my son was a pathological liar like his mother when he was in junior high. ( I was awarded custody/ she abandoned)… and, narcissism runs in my family (dad/brother)… it’s like the kid had no chance. So it’s hard not to feel shame/ self sabotage bc of this.
I’m reading Forget Them Kids, by Vivian King, that has great content backed by research. Dr. Coleman is included . The book is geared toward parents estranged by their adult children and is straightforward with good advice. One of the best books I’ve read, check it out.
This describes my daughters partner to an absolute T..
He said he would leave the relationship if my grandson ( not his son), stayed and returned home with the same bad behaviour..
He is incredibly well cared for, quite treasured, adventure, activity, loves staying, (not allowed any more..)
My end is fun and more relaxed ( not without some must do's),
Their end, many rules , restrictions, control,..my grandson son was fighting all of that when he returned home..so the partner made it look like my fault, or my grandsons fault, instead of making adjustments ( at BOTH ends ) to balance things up for my innocent grandson..
I need to aline with their rules , and they need to make some adjustments for the extra valuable time i could offer my grandson..
A classic example where the child is hurt, or abused, because of an adult childs control & gross ignorance.
This describes my situation to a "T" 😢💔🙏
Is it fair to say that underlying mental health diagnoses, such as extreme anxiety disorders, severe obsessive-compulsive disorders, or borderline personality disorders, will exacerbate the Dark Triad traits, thus making reconciliation impossible without the affected person engaging in comprehensive therapy with a qualified medical professional?
My wife and I were married in 1968. Our daughter, K, born in 1972. We have been estranged for over twenty years, no contact for half that time. Every silent missed birthday and holiday is another stab in the heart and brings back all the feelings described in this Substack post. A reason we’re paid subscribers - the need to keep trying to understand WHY?
My daughter born 1974. Twenty years also. Heart hurts a lot. 😢
Thank you Dr Coleman for your insights. It helps me understand. At first I was so bewildered by the estrangement that I blamed myself. I take responsibility for my failures but it is not all my doing.
My door will always be open to my daughter and her family. I pray for them and for all estranged families.
Thank you Josh! Will this be available to watch afterwards? As I have to work..
I read this earlier today, and took a pause, called in to work as I drank my coffee, with tears streaming. I'm working hard to let go. It's so hard. Dr. Coleman, thank you for your continuing, researched articles. I'm really trying to let go and move forward. I've had really troubling, detailed dreams again the past few nights. I want them to stop. I took a break from Substack but it didn't work.
Yes you can view it here: https://www.zoom.us/rec/play/76YUj7B6_iAJFOPvF3CtMaumvdPskcVDktgq8L2274ArR6bvZM17rMVwf71DGRGUyYWymJLJA9TLbbw5.vcNToixe76pgfOGP?autoplay=true
Many good points here. I admire and am grateful for your work overall.
One thing I consistently feel disagreement with, however, is the assumption that ALL parents in this situation feel guilt. I feel regret about some things like any parent would. And would love a re-do like most of us would about anything of importance in their life.
But I feel zero guilt. Shock, bewilderment, profound grief, and longing, and anger…yes. But guilt? No. I know I was a good mother and do not deserve this. Period.
Whenever I read your work I have this conflict and sense of disconnect when I stumble on the constant assumption that all of us carry guilt. It gets in the way of
me embracing all the other wisdom and elements, including humor and kindness and many many ideas that I agree with in your work.
Just saying, after thinking it for years.
Same here. No guilt, never blamed myself. Due to my upbringing and temperment, I am always very deliberate and intentional in what I say and do. I know they hate me, but that didn't trick me into thinking I am hateful. But I guess it seems more humble and loving for a parent to say, "I must have done something wrong." But no, I don't regret a thing.
Yikes! You must have interviewed my son… thank you for this additional insight. The erosion of our relationship began about 4 years ago, never no contact, but every characteristic that embodies the Dark Triad. Every time there is any attempt at an honest conversation I somehow end up deeper in the whole than when I started. He acknowledged that my amends letter must have taken a lot of work, that he appreciated my effort. But of course nothing changes. Anyway I could go on forever. Very much hoping that this is recorded because on the east Coast it will be 11:00am, with scheduled commitments. So much more to learn 🤞
Im beginning to wonder why we are doing this to ourselves. It's torture. I will never forget the last time I saw my then 22 year old daughter (2 yrs ago). It was after a lovely day (mostly) visiting her in Austin. I live in Denver. She was very agitated. In retrospect, I recognize many things. The end was when she tossed me and my luggage out into the dark. It was traumatic, and over nothing, really. The look of hate in her very blue eyes, when she told me she would never speak to me again "Forever" was heartbreaking. The dreams I have are haunting. I was not perfect, but this was awful. I can no longer do this to myself. Nor should you.
I am new to the comments section. I am a father of adult children, but I don't feel like one anymore. The Dark Triad piece is exactly what we have experienced with our two adult daughters. D1 for over 3yrs and unbelievable cruel, angry behavior. D2 over a year, wants no contact. The family is wrecked, relationships with grandchildren are askew, not normal.
Joy of life is gone, we can't get it back except for short periods. I'm hurt and angry, sad and worried, but can't do anything. Therapy didn't work out. Daughters have shut off relationships with others in the family and friends. The damage is fantastic and can't be turned back anymore.
Joshua has commented before that there are therapists who encourage adult children cutting off family. How awful. We did everything to help these two daughters. After reading books, and these comments... I know we are not alone in this horror. Some time ago Joshua recommended "Ambiguous Loss", a very relevant book, but depressing. Could only read it in small doses.
I’d like to see writing about how genetics play a role in this dark triad of behaviors. I saw warning signs my son was a pathological liar like his mother when he was in junior high. ( I was awarded custody/ she abandoned)… and, narcissism runs in my family (dad/brother)… it’s like the kid had no chance. So it’s hard not to feel shame/ self sabotage bc of this.
Very close to my life now.
I’m reading Forget Them Kids, by Vivian King, that has great content backed by research. Dr. Coleman is included . The book is geared toward parents estranged by their adult children and is straightforward with good advice. One of the best books I’ve read, check it out.
I’m looking for the link to the replay. I was also at work and not able to hear it on Friday. Can anyone help me with that?
This describes my daughters partner to an absolute T..
He said he would leave the relationship if my grandson ( not his son), stayed and returned home with the same bad behaviour..
He is incredibly well cared for, quite treasured, adventure, activity, loves staying, (not allowed any more..)
My end is fun and more relaxed ( not without some must do's),
Their end, many rules , restrictions, control,..my grandson son was fighting all of that when he returned home..so the partner made it look like my fault, or my grandsons fault, instead of making adjustments ( at BOTH ends ) to balance things up for my innocent grandson..
I need to aline with their rules , and they need to make some adjustments for the extra valuable time i could offer my grandson..
A classic example where the child is hurt, or abused, because of an adult childs control & gross ignorance.
Same question have to work!